Hi I am new to this site and am in the process of trying to find one of these cars to buy. I have looked at a few and would like to ask if the 1500 or 1600 engine is better with regard to tuning potential?
I have looked at a 1973 Hillman Avenger 1500 GLS and a later 1975 1600 GLS. (I was originally wanting a GT but they are now almost impossible to find in the UK)
The idea is to tune it for fast street use (maybe Tiger performance) rather than race or track.
I would initially like to do this by "bolt-on" upgrades like air intake, 4-into-1, big bore exhaust, hot cam etc, before getting into any serious head or block work which will probably follow later.
Thanks.
Gary
Rich will come along shortly: he has gone for a 1500 over the 1600 in his custom build because it is more streetable amongst other reasons. You are sacrificing top speed for low end. Depends how you plan to drive it. Also what ratio your diff is so you can get the sweet spots in the right range of speed.
I've a 1500 in mine and it does the job... never thought about replacing it. Well recently at least: it was only going to be in there as a short term measure while I rebuilt my hot motor. But I was having too much fun as is and it refuses to die.
Another option to think about is tracking down a south american 1800. These have a heavier block. It goes without saying as well, especially being in the UK, that you could pull the guts out of a Sunbeam and transplant them. But the stock motor is cool enough as it is.
Hi thanks for that. I am leaning towards the 1500 car. Somebody told me they have a higher compression and shorter stroke than the 1600 engine?
I guess I am looking for a little more bottom end grunt, rather than top speed.
my tuned 1600 is almost unusable on the street
avenga's 1500 is/was daily street driven as far as I know
both are pretty much the same tune/mods, electric ignition, cam, twin dellorrto's, extactors, balanced flywheels/crank, polished/port matched intake/exhaust
Yeah I think you want the 1500 then mate. I'm not sure if the UK is anything like us but here in NZ when you hit the magical 40 year mark everything gets cheaper and better too!
What are you thinking about in the carburettor side of things? Because I'd recommend considering running a big single. I've recently "upgraded" to twin 1.5 strombergs and I'm not sure if that was the best idea. While they give me a better feel on the open road I has a huge fan of the 1.75 stromburg I used to run. Way simpler and better at lower revs. Those only came out on one model year, 1976 from memory, but it could be worth investigating a weber or something.
Unless you find a 1500 with twin carbs (GT/GLS) the 1600 engine is much better because even the single carb model has free flow manifolds and a hotter cam than the single carb 1500. Tip: Don't get a Chrysler 1600 either as it has the same wussy cam as the single carb Hillman 1500!
There's no need to change the cam if you get a 1500 or 1600 GLS/GT as they're good up to 7000 rpm while providing lots of low down torque.
The GT/GLS already has a lightened flywheel, so just the carbs/exhaust to modify to make a little flyer!!
Hey that's interesting. I didn't know the GT/GLS had a lighted flywheel?
Its definitely a GLS I am going to buy. Just a question of 1500 or later model 1600? I had started off looking for a GT but there just arn't any left here. As far as I know the GLS is the same in every respect other than trim level, so I figured it was the next best thing.
The car I have my eye on is a 1500 GLS with twin stromberg set up.
Does the GLS also have the upgraded "S" head that I keep reading about on here as well?
Thanks.
All the 1500 GT/GLS twin carb motors had the 'S' head with slightly bigger inlet valves. They went back to the standard head on all 1600 motors, but the 1600 GT/GLS is still more powerful than the 1500 'S' GT/GLS because of that extra 100cc...lol
Ok now I am starting to build a picture of what I want and what would be best to start with to achieve this.
Other than the twin carbs, head and flywheel... what else did the GT/GLS have over and above the standard DL and Super models?
amazing info in this thread!
Quote from: doublejumpstart on April 14, 2014, 10:24:19 PM
Ok now I am starting to build a picture of what I want and what would be best to start with to achieve this.
Other than the twin carbs, head and flywheel... what else did the GT/GLS have over and above the standard DL and Super models?
The GT/GLS motors had double valve springs, so easy to check if the cars had a transplant?!
Just shine a torch in the oil filler hole and see if there's double valve springs in there...lol
They also used the Lucas 43D non-vacuum dizzy, had extra bracing between the sump and gearbox and between the x member and chassis (see Scarlet thread for photos) along with larger rear wheel cylinders.
The dash was completely different of course and included two speed wipers, two speed heater fan and dimming dash lights, but no clock!
I put a Chrysler clock in my GLS (Alpine) where the heater switch was and moved that back to the original Super position under the dash, can see a photo in my thread.
Quote from: blekkja on April 14, 2014, 03:26:46 PM
What are you thinking about in the carburettor side of things? Because I'd recommend considering running a big single. I've recently "upgraded" to twin 1.5 strombergs and I'm not sure if that was the best idea. While they give me a better feel on the open road I has a huge fan of the 1.75 stromberg I used to run. Way simpler and better at lower revs. Those only came out on one model year, 1976 from memory, but it could be worth investigating a weber or something.
Yeah those 1.75" CD's/SU's are a good idea. Pretty well impossible to find factory ones, just get a Rover 3500 1.75" one and modify the 1.5" inlet manifold to suit, similar to what Azza1600 did.
The twin 1.5" carbies do have a bad rep...less torque than a single and hard to tune.
The tuning problem is caused by worn throttle spindles upsetting the mixture and causing rough running, particularly at idle...my Alpine idles like it's got a lumpy cam...haha
A poor design really, the throttle cable connects to a lever on the side of the spindles...in effect pulling them 'towards' the cable mount...a recipe for rapid wear.
What's needed is a neutral 'rotary' motion to minimise wear and that's what the DL/Super had with their mechanical throttle linkage.
Many of those cheapie Avengers still have no wear in their throttle spindles!
While the mechanical linkage was good for the carby, it was trying for the driver, often causing 'bunny hop' starts in manual Avengers as it was over sensitive and affected by engine movement.
When the Chrysler model came out all Avenger throttles were cable operated...it helped with smooth starts...but no good for the carby!
They did make an attempt to lessen the problem by installing a half-round cable guide on the throttle spindle to get a more rotary motion.
To fix the problem completely two 'diametrically opposed' throttle cables are required, which is what expensive cars like Ferrari used!
I like the 1500's better. as the others said, it has a higher compression ratio and shorter stroke.
Mine has an 'S' head so it has the bigger values and the double valve springs. I have also ported and blue printed the head, along whith extractors, dual dellortos etc.
I am making above Tiger power and it is very streetable.
I used to race a bored out 1600 and I agree with Joker, 1500 for the street and 1600 for the track.
1975 Hillman Avenger 1500 Dyno Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=984EqYJx0Uw#ws)
Quote from: oldschool on April 15, 2014, 09:01:49 AM
The GT/GLS motors had double valve springs, so easy to check if the cars had a transplant?!
Just shine a torch in the oil filler hole and see if there's double valve springs in there...lol
They also used the Lucas 43D non-vacuum dizzy, had extra bracing between the sump and gearbox and between the x member and chassis (see Scarlet thread for photos) along with larger rear wheel cylinders.
The dash was completely different of course and included two speed wipers, two speed heater fan and dimming dash lights, but no clock!
I put a Chrysler clock in my GLS (Alpine) where the heater switch was and moved that back to the original Super position under the dash, can see a photo in my thread.
Did the GT/GLS also have a dupelex timing chain?
Quote from: avenga on April 15, 2014, 11:28:19 AM
I like the 1500's better. as the others said, it has a higher compression ratio and shorter stroke.
Mine has an 'S' head so it has the bigger values and the double valve springs. I have also ported and blue printed the head, along whith extractors, dual dellortos etc.
I am making above Tiger power and it is very streetable.
I used to race a bored out 1600 and I agree with Joker, 1500 for the street and 1600 for the track.
1975 Hillman Avenger 1500 Dyno Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=984EqYJx0Uw#ws)
That's interesting that most of you seem to think the 1500 is a better option. Your car looks a real beast!
Quote from: doublejumpstart on April 15, 2014, 08:55:51 PM
Did the GT/GLS also have a dupelex timing chain?
Hard to say...it depends on what parts were handy on the assembly line that day...lol
I think the 1500 'S' motors generally did, but the 1600's didn't and you can't tell from the width of the timing cover either...you need to remove the sump to check for sure.
My old Super had a 1600 double valve spring motor and a wider timing cover, indicating it had a duplex chain, but when I removed the sump I found a single row chain?!
My 1600 double valve spring Alpine has a narrow timing cover and I was quite surprised to find a duplex chain squeezed in there when I removed the sump!
Quote from: oldschool on April 15, 2014, 10:02:50 AM
Yeah those 1.75" CD's/SU's are a good idea. Pretty well impossible to find factory ones, just get a Rover 3500 1.75" one and modify the 1.5" inlet manifold to suit, similar to what Azza1600 did.
Yeah my car is at the shop now getting the carbys overhauled and tuned. Dude is struggling to get them exactly right, and this is with him already seeming to manage to work some serious magic.
I really only upgraded from the 1.75 due to finding it impossible to track down a replacement air filter housing (I cooked mine on the extractors: tighten your bolts!), and being offered a set of twins for cheaper than I could buy an aftermarket filter housing for. But it has meant swapping out the linkages, choke cable right down to the pedal box to get them up and running. Been a right pain in the arse. If they continue to give me grief after their rebuild then I am ripping them off.
Ok this is all great information you guys have given me. Thanks to all who have replied.
Wish me luck now trying to work out a deal for the car I have my eye on.
I will have a ton of other questions later!
Get some dual dellortos. They just look better :D ;D
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/IMG_9144.jpg)
I miss my delortos. Unfortunately they were just a tad too angry for the stock GLS set up.
Quote from: avenga on April 16, 2014, 09:25:53 AM
Get some dual dellortos. They just look better :D ;D
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/IMG_9144.jpg)
Are they better than webers on an Avenger?
Quote from: doublejumpstart on April 16, 2014, 08:15:54 PM
Are they better than webers on an Avenger?
Yeah Dellortos are much better than webers. Here is a post I wrote about it a while back. I think it was something like 14hp difference on a 160hp race engine.
Quote from: avenga on May 29, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
Webers don't work as well on the Avenger, it is down to fuel atomization size, the Dellorto's have smaller fuel droplets than the weber, which is what the Avengers like.
David Vizzard did heaps of testing on them back in the day, here is a link to a article about it. http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/Catsman1/media/MoreAvengerTuning1_zps286cdfb0.jpg.html?sort=4&o=26 (http://s1340.photobucket.com/user/Catsman1/media/MoreAvengerTuning1_zps286cdfb0.jpg.html?sort=4&o=26)
zoom in and read the Avenger tuning articles, it goes in to great lengths about the weber vs dellortos, I posted some parts of that article somewhere before but I can't remember where.
Yeh Series 6 had the CD175 for the High Performance models (both 1300 and 1600) replacing the TC setup.
Did the MK2 GLS still have the CD175 I wonder?
Will the inlet manifold from a Sunbeam TI fit a 1500 Avenger and could Dellortos be mounted on this instead of Webers? I know someone local who has one of these for sale.
Yes the inlet manifold will fit the block,not sure if dellorto and weber have same bolt pattern I would presume they do.
Google images of both and compare.
Quote from: avenga on April 16, 2014, 09:25:53 AM
Get some dual dellortos. They just look better :D ;D
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/IMG_9144.jpg)
I am surprised you have not fitted blue hoses with that set-up?
I was thinking of that but I wanted to keep the classic black hoses. I wanted to keep it sort of looking like a period rally car would.
My V8 will probably have fancy hoses etc.