Well lads, as ye may know my car is a 70' 1500DL, now the engine isint wonderfull bit rough about the bottom end, thrust washers i would say but anyway...
Ive got my hands on a series 7 1600, engine supposed to be good wont have heard it running told it needs a ballast resistor so il try put er running before i do anything.
What i want is a bit more pep and reliability, thought about all the fancy engine swap jobs but i would like to keep it fairly old skool
The sum total of what i want to do is fit a cam and a set of twin 40s
Would i be better rebuild the 1500 engine and cam and carb it? or rebuild the 1600 and do the same
Ive been told by a few that the 1500 was a quicker engine with a shorter stroke?
What would ye do if ye were in my boat and had the 2 engines available ???
All suggestions gratefully recieved !
ballast thing is only for the ignition side of things, if you keep the same ignition/dizzy/coil you shouldn't need it
Rich has a 1500 cam /twins on the side and got slightly less HP on dyno compared to my 1600 / cam and twins (almost identical setup bar the MSD)
1500 be High comp so probably better on street vs the 1600 which needs to be driven high up in the rev range, bogs down low etc
I would go 1500 based on my VERY limited experience
The ballast resistor is used by the electronic ignition fitted to the Chrysler Avenger series 7 onwards, which also needs the transistor box on the inner guard to work. Otherwise just use your old ignition dizzy.
Here's the performance specs...
1500 single carb: 63 hp @ 5000 rpm, 80 ft lb torque @ 3000 rpm
1600 single carb: 69 hp @ 5000 rpm, 87 ft lb torque @ 3000 rpm
1500 twin carb: 77 hp @ 5600 rpm, 81 ft lb torque @ 3750 rpm
1600 twin carb: 80 hp @ 5500 rpm, 86 ft lb torque at 3400 rpm
1500 Tiger: 93 hp @ 6100 rpm, 90 ft lb torque @ 4500 rpm
I'd suggest using the 1600 motor with a mild cam and twin CD carbs (with their twin exhaust manifold) which will be more peppy while still being economical.
If you go the for a hot cam and twin weber's/dellorto's to get 93 hp like a Tiger, be prepared for a large increase in fuel consumption!!
BTW those factory HP numbers are total lies. They are taken at the flywheel and most probably with all the accessories like water pump and alternator removed.
I just got my hot 1500 dyno'd at 86.8HP at the wheels and it would blow away a Tiger anyday. I am only about 3 HP below Jokers race engine now, I was running a bit lean at top end so I am going to try some different jets then I think I will be able to make more power out of my 1500 than Jokers 1600 race engine.
Hey Ross, would you be keen to put one of your stock Avengers on the Dyno (I will pay for the dyno) so we can have a baseline to see how much extra our mods are getting. I know when Joker did his old 1600 he got about 45HP at the wheels, I think that would be about right, then a Alpine would get maybe 55HP at the wheels.
BTW here is a video of my 1500 on the Dyno last week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=984EqYJx0Uw
I have cam specs somewhere
Quote from: JoKer on May 09, 2011, 09:46:44 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/JoKerNZ/2011/Avenger/AvengerDynoApril201190HP.jpg)
Orange Line 30+ y/o tired poked/burnt-out Donk
Green Fresh rebuilt 1600 from the Hutt Credit to Hunted/Andrew for source with Solexe's
Blue same fresh rebuilt 1600 with Twin Dellorto 40's from avenga and tuned By Keith Stewart www.DynoPro.co.nz
as ya can see nothing below 3500-5000rpm
I got the hp and torque figures from automobile-catalog.com and they're DIN Net figures, which I understand are taken at the flywheel with accessories and exhaust attached.
They also listed the SAE Gross hp figures which are around 10 hp higher, also from the flywheel but no accessories or exhaust attached I guess.
Yes it would be great to put my Alpine on the dyno when it's back on the road.
And you lose around 25% by the time you get through the trans, diff and tyres.
So at the wheels they would roughly be
1500 single carb: 47 hp
1600 single carb: 51 hp
1500 twin carb: 57 hp
1600 twin carb: 60 hp
1500 Tiger: 70 hp
Just so you can compare apple with apple, other wise people think our modified Avengers are much less powerful than they are.
I will probably be putting my Avenger back on the Dyno when I get my new jets fitted so you should pop over then and we will sneak you on the dyno, the dyno is just up the road from you in Henderson.
BTW Jared, your RPM vs Speed doesn't match up, are you sure they were running the car in top gear? i.e direct drive?
We did my dyno run in 4th and I was doing 120.2MPH @ 6526RPM
3rd gear IIRC, could have been 2nd
edit : have had speedo- over 200kph in 4th!
Sometime in the new year Rich...will give me a chance to tweak up the hp over the holidays!
Quote from: oldschool on December 18, 2012, 02:06:50 PM
The ballast resistor is used by the electronic ignition fitted to the Chrysler Avenger series 7 onwards, which also needs the transistor box on the inner guard to work. Otherwise just use your old ignition dizzy.
Here's the performance specs...
1500 single carb: 63 hp @ 5000 rpm, 80 ft lb torque @ 3000 rpm
1600 single carb: 69 hp @ 5000 rpm, 87 ft lb torque @ 3000 rpm
1500 twin carb: 77 hp @ 5600 rpm, 81 ft lb torque @ 3750 rpm
1600 twin carb: 80 hp @ 5500 rpm, 86 ft lb torque at 3400 rpm
1500 Tiger: 93 hp @ 6100 rpm, 90 ft lb torque @ 4500 rpm
I'd suggest using the 1600 motor with a mild cam and twin CD carbs (with their twin exhaust manifold) which will be more peppy while still being economical.
If you go the for a hot cam and twin weber's/dellorto's to get 93 hp like a Tiger, be prepared for a large increase in fuel consumption!!
Fuel economy wouldnt bother me a lot as it will oly be a Sunday driver, excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by CD carbs and twin exhaust manifold? I was thinking myself about a mild fast road cam and twin 40 dellortos, not lookin huge power and i want it to sound nice !!!
The Twin CD carbs also came with a different twin exhaust manifold with 2 heating pads which would heat both carbs.
It sounds like you want something like mine, mine has a mild fast road cam and twin 40 dellortos. Plus a bit of head work and other bits. It is not hard to get them going faster.
Plus twin dellortos look and sound so cool.
Here is a shot of my engine setup
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/IMG_9046.jpg)
and here is some in car of it so you can hear a little of what it sounds like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EojldShQkQ
Note: that video was from before I did my 5 speed and a few other mods so it is faster now and sound so much better in real life.
Indeed fella thats what im aspring to, ive watched that vid about 1000 times and smile every time,
My plan for an engine is,
Port and polish head, mild cam, new bottom end bearings, new gaskets seals and the like, and not much more to be honest, i dont want or need a rocket just something that sounds well and goes a bit livelier than a 1500 std.
Goin to put coil overs up front and a strut brace on top, tie rod underneath, new back shocks/springs and lowering blocks, interior standard apart from maybe a retro fit centre console with rev clock (and a few switches that do nothing but look cool!
Tell me whats the story with fuelling the dellortos? are u running an electric pump?
I am yup, out of an OLD Subaru, 3psi steady
Yup, that engine work sounds like it will give you a really strong little engine, chuck on some extractors and the twin 40's and you will be set.
Avengers have coils at the back so no need for lowering blocks, just buy some shorter stiffer shocks and springs and you will be away laughing. doing the front end helps heaps also, when done properly they handle like a true race car.
I also run an electric fuel pump to my Dellortos, 3psi is perfect.
Quote from: avenga on December 19, 2012, 11:45:44 AM
Yup, that engine work sounds like it will give you a really strong little engine, chuck on some extractors and the twin 40's and you will be set.
Avengers have coils at the back so no need for lowering blocks, just buy some shorter stiffer shocks and springs and you will be away laughing. doing the front end helps heaps also, when done properly they handle like a true race car.
I also run an electric fuel pump to my Dellortos, 3psi is perfect.
What a stupid thing to say regarding lowering blocks...........my bad i forgot
Would u be able to give me a wee rundown on the plumbing of the fuel lines fella? u running a stand alone switch or connected through the ignition?
As regards extractors any suggestions??
My fuel pump basically runs through my ignition, it also goes through the imobiliser on my alarm so if the alarm is set then no fuel. I also imobilise 3-4 other things so she would be pretty hard to steal.
As for the physical location of the fuel pump and filters, they are all hidden away out of site as part of my engine bay deloom.
As for extractors, I used these for my '75. They are locally made here in NZ, it would probably be easier for you to get a set from UK.
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/P1000956.jpg)
Don't get carried away with electric fuel pumps, a good std pump has served my highly modified engine through many versions and improvements which now gives 140Hp at the wheels being feed via twin 45DCOEs. I have only recently changed to an electric pump as I was concerned that constant high speed running may lead to leaning out from limited fuel flow.
There are a few basic that must be done:-
Do not use a 1500 head other that the "S" marked heads from the 1500 TC or Alpine as the spring seat can not easily take double valve springs and the std spring collars are cast iron and will creak then break and drop the valve if you start to rev the engine.
Do not polish the inlet port or the combustion chamber as this will loose HP, by all means open up the ports to allow more flow, but leave the surface quite rough. Get a the valves ground with multi angle seats and have bronze valve guides fitted if you can afford it as these engine like to wear the std guides which are machined straight into the head casting.
If you are going to do any work on the block then machine 40 thou off the top to increase the compression ratio. Do not plane the head.
Use the TC/Apline cam which is a excellent cam and works very well with Head and carb mods. Also upgrade the timing gear to the Duplex chain as in TC/Alpines.
Change the ignition to the electronic system from the Chysler Avenger. Its a very simple mod if you can find a Chrysler, get the Dizy, coil, ballast resistor and the ignition loom and it will plug straight in. Change the plugs to Champion N6Y or equal.
Two final must that will not make it go faster, but will save you money from radiator repairs....get rid of the std fan and fit an electric one and MAKE SURE the engine mounts a in good condition and fit restraint boxes around them if possible, if not the first time you go for a blast up the road and jump on the brakes then the std fan will grind itself into the middle of the radiator...AVENGA will testify to this.
There are heaps more to do, but start with a few basics and and all will be great...
Quote from: NZTiger on December 19, 2012, 09:36:34 PM
Two final must that will not make it go faster, but will save you money from radiator repairs....get rid of the std fan and fit an electric one and MAKE SURE the engine mounts a in good condition and fit restraint boxes around them if possible, if not the first time you go for a blast up the road and jump on the brakes then the std fan will grind itself into the middle of the radiator...AVENGA will testify to this.
Yup, that is a must. And here is the proof, just after running in my new engine I ran it up to 7,000RPM then stomped on the brakes for the next corner then BOOM.
Damaged radiator
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/P1010163.jpg)
Broken fan
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/P1010164.jpg)
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/P1010166.jpg)
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/avenga76/1975%20avenger/P1010167.jpg)
So is there a difference between a 1600 alpine head and a late model 1600 head? well apart from the double valve springs??
All the 1600 heads are the same, apart from double valve springs on the Alpine models. The 1500 Alpine had bigger inlet valves (same as Tiger) as well. That head has an 'S' cast in it behind the thermostat housing to indicate it's different to a standard 1500 head. I think the 'S' head can also be used on a 1600 motor...if you can find one!!
The Chrysler GLS replaced the Alpine as the top model, but only used a standard 1600 motor, so no twin carbs, warm cam, lighter flywheel and double valve springs...making them a bit gutless...my Alpine will piss all over my GLS!!
I have an 'S' head on my 1500.
Took me ages to track it down, my 1500 is out of a '73 Alpine.
Yes, hard to track one down nowadays as the 1500 Alpine was only made in 1973. Before that was the 1500 TC which was a NZ 1500 Avenger fitted with twin carbs, so maybe no S head?
Steve who bought Scarlet, thought she went better with the 1600 Alpine motor and just a single carb, than the 1500 TC he owned years ago.
Has anyone put the bigger inlet valves in the 1600 head I wonder?
The 1500 TC had the same engine as the Alpine and has the "S" Head.
All head s are interchangeable physically but there could be some effects to the CR as the chamber sixes are a bit different between the engine sizes.
If I was building a new head from scratch I would start with a 1300 head as it has the smallest ports etc and would give the most scope for shaping ports and chambers to maximise port angles etc.
So any idea what benefit double valve springs offer on a stock 1600 alpine engine?? valve bounce but hey at wat rpm? I put a recond standard 1600 head on my alpine engine, I dnt take it much past 5 1/2k ish, thought pointless when power starts to drop off, or am i wrong? got told that double valve springs on vengers wear out cams fast, apart from that my engine is alpine with extractors an 1 3/4 su and electronic ign, early gearbox and 3:7 diff
Valve bounce usually happens after 6000 rpm and since the twin carb Alpine motor produces its max power at 5500 rpm, compared to 5000 rpm for a single carb Avenger, Hillman probably thought it prudent to fit double valve springs.
Another advantage of double valve springs not often mentioned is safety.
Valve springs can break from fatigue and if it happens at high rpm it's game over for the piston and head damage too, so it's good to have a 'spare'!
Like a twin row timing chain, they do use a little power, I read 1kW on a V8...so maybe only 200w on an Avenger...with their low lift cam?
I haven't heard of cams getting worn from double valve springs, would be more likely the rocker gear as it directly operates the valves and has to absorb a higher mechanical force than the cam.
Long story short...no point using double valve springs on a single or twin carb Avenger run under 6000 rpm.
Cool, I'll stick with what Ive got......well until it goes bang lol
Yeah better keep those extractors on Aaron...you don't want too much power...LOL
Haha yeah extractley
Quote from: avenga on December 18, 2012, 03:32:50 PM
BTW Jared, your RPM vs Speed doesn't match up, are you sure they were running the car in top gear? i.e direct drive?
We did my dyno run in 4th and I was doing 120.2MPH @ 6526RPM
So running a car in a lower gear will produce higher hp/torque figures at the wheels for the same rpm compared to running in top gear?
If so, then to compare cars they both need to be in top gear and use the same wheels/tyres and diff ratio or does the dyno computer make an adjustment for that?
I always wondered why my Chrysler 1600 is less powerful than a Hillman 1600...thought it was because the Chrysler's are heavier...but that's not the reason!
Looking in the workshop manual...the Chrysler 1600's have a mild cam like the original Hillman 1250/1500 single carb.
The Hillman 1500 twin carb got a hot cam and the same cam was used when they upgraded to the Hillman 1600 twin carb.
At that time the Hillman 1600 single carb also got a hotter cam, but the 1300 cam remained the same as the 1250.
When the single carb Chrysler 1600 came out they went back to a mild cam...maybe for reduced emissions?!
So if you've got a 1300 and want to upgrade to a 1600...fit a Hillman motor, not a Chrysler one or put a Hillman cam in a Chrysler motor!!
If you want to upgrade your gutless Chrysler Avenger with a Hillman spec camshaft...there's one on eBay here....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271176291305?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271176291305?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)
But don't buy it on eBay...they're cheaper from Speedy Spares...LOL
reading through this has got my imagination spinning like mad about what to do to my little Caroline.
I have an alpine engine that originally had twin carbs so does this have a hot cam? i have twin DHLA 40 Delortos to screw on to it, will a mild cam from kelfords make a worthy difference?
does any one have good dimensions for a bit of porting and polishing? I'd love to get over 100bhp out of it even up to 130 if its not too detrimental.
plus any tips, or tricks of the trade, of how i can get a standard engine running really well with out taking apart and on a small budget?
Are you talking about horsepower at the wheels or at the flywheel? Because 100-130hp at the wheels (120-160hp at the flywheel) is a full on race prepped engine, my old rally car was in that region and it had big holden pistons, massive lumpy cam and huge ports.
around the 80-90hp at the wheels (100-120hp at the flywheel) in more like the max you are going to get out of a modified street engine.
My 1500 makes 86.8hp at the wheels (joker's rally car makes around the same), my engine was fully rebuilt with 1600 pistons, ported head, balanced internals, Kelford cam, DHLA's, MSD ignition, electric fan and fuel pump. The engine was originally from a '73 Alpine so it had the big port dual spring 'S' Head and dual timing chain etc.
Here is a clip of it on the dyno. 1975 Hillman Avenger 1500 Dyno Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=984EqYJx0Uw#ws)
Big horsepower and a small budget are incompatible...ask Richard!
The Alpine motor already has a GT cam, so no need to change it unless you're making big $$ changes to the rest of the engine.
Read David Vizards tips in the Technical Section...he has a lot of low cost ways of getting more power...for example running a cooler thermostat makes more HP.
Also fitting an electric fan and electronic ignition with a sports coil perks them up too...I have electronic ignition for $100
Do you have the specs and measurements for a good ported head? some thing i could hand over to a machinst and get them to machine the head?
Having 100-120 bhp at the flywheel would be great.
Will a lightened flywheel help out?
what about bigger valves?
where do get those extractors from earlier in the topic?
also "oldschool" were you the one that suggested i put the carb from a rover v8 on my standard engine to give a bit of extra grunt?
Avengers already have 30mm ports, so don't port it unless you want an 8000rpm screamer unsuitable for road use!
A better option is to fit bigger Tiger valves which are usually available on eBay.
The exhaust manifold twin outlet can be ported out to match the twin exhaust pipe, as it's a few mm smaller diameter than the pipe.
The Alpine motor already has a lightened flywheel and can be lightened further if required...see David Vizards articles.
DO NOT remove the exhaust manifold and fit extractors, while keeping the standard inlet manifold, otherwise you'll lose 2 or 3 HP!
The exhaust manifold is bolted to the inlet manifold and heats it to improve fuel atomisation and motor power.
Yes, you can use a 1.75" carb...which Hillman actually fitted in the 1976-77 Alpines to solve problems from tuning the twin carbs.
To get 100HP or more like Richard, you'll need to ditch the standard carbs, inlet, exhaust manifolds and fit twin Dellotos with extractors and a 2" exhaust system.
I will talk to my mechanic and see if I can get you any head specs.
The cam I use in in my build thread.
The extractors are from Bygone autos in Beachhaven.
You can flow the heads and it makes a huge difference. You don't need to make the ports any bigger, if you do you will kill the bottom end but you can do a lot of work inside the head to make it flow much better, again, read the David Vizard articles. He goes in to heaps of details on how to flow the head.
Avoid going too crazy unless you are going to do everything, like oldschool said, if you are keeping the original inlet manifold then don't use extractors.
Lightened flywheels make it harder to drive on the road, as Ross said, the Alpine has a lighter flywheel, any lighter than that then you start to have trouble as a street car.
You should look at it in stages.
Stage 1: bigger SU carb, Alpine cam, standard exhaust, sports coil, electronic ignition. Maybe a 5-10hp increase
Stage 2: like my 1500, around 80-90rwhp (100-120 at the flywheel) side draft dellortos, electronic ignition + MSD, extractors, new exhaust system, balanced internals, flowed and port matched head. hot cam. electric fuel pump and fan.
Stage 3: 120-140rwhp race motor, as above plus, big port head, competition valve springs, larger aftermarket pistons. lightened internals, lightened flywheel. aggressive lumpy cam. shaved block and head.
Stage 4: 160+rwhp fully spec'd race engine, as above but even more headwork, maybe drysump, brazil 1800 engine, possibly stroked to 2000cc. Other crazy stuff.
I would class stage 1 and 2 as street cars with 3 and 4 being purely for the race track.
yea i have two stages im going to do it in. right now i just want to get it going to drive her to Auckland and use her.
When i get up ill start getting parts to rebuild the engine to what i want.
the rebuild stage will use my delortos and extractors.
With the internals, Im seeing on Ebay some .050" over size pistons i would like to get. who some one that can balance the bottom end nicely?
wheres i good place to get MSD ignition?
what is the difference between and normal electronic set up and having MSD? ive seen them about but i dont know anything about them.
Quote from: the_customizer_91 on July 26, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
wheres i good place to get MSD ignition?
what is the difference between and normal electronic set up and having MSD? ive seen them about but i dont know anything about them.
http://www.v8parts.co.nz/ (http://www.v8parts.co.nz/)
They have a sale on MSD, only $399 for a MSD 6AL.
MSD stands for Multi Spark Discharge. It is a capacitive discharge unit that lets to spark plugs fire more than once per cycle, up to 3 time or for 20 degrees of duration. This also lets you run a higher 45,000 volt coil as the MSD sends over 500v to the coil instead of the normal 12v. You still use the electronic ignition as a trigger for the MSD but the MSD provides a much bigger and more frequent spark.
I live in Auckland also so you should pop over sometime and I will take you for a drive in my Avenger so you can see the difference the carbs etc makes.
sweetness sounds good.
I'll bring over my Avenger when I'm in Auckland.
what would be the best spark plugs for a standard set up?