Quote from: Paddy75 on August 21, 2011, 01:08:06 AM
Hey folks, I need and am buying a new a carbie for a 1300, have a choice, a 1.75'' SU, or a 1.5'' Stromberg.
The SU has no vacum in the dashpot, the Stromberg has.
I think the SU was used as a universal on the 75 on Avenger, same carb could be fitted (just diffrent needle) on a 1725cc Hunter/Arrow.
Looking at old brochures the Stromberg was fitted to the '74 Avenger 1300, My 75 1300 Super has the original factory fitted carb, but its, right enough for a 37 year old carbie - its f*** and its the SU.
I reckon the car is only giving 20mpg - hey, the Avenger was not the Escort! Avengers gave 30-35mpg when running right.
The air filter smells badly of fuel, the plugs are sooty and you can start it cold without the choke. So needs a new yoke. I've found a place where I can get a new, either SU or Stromberg CD3 or CD, same price.
What do u think?
Paddy B.
welcome to the forums dude, I dont really do pm's :P
all of that is way over my head - I just plug and play
others may/will have more info
and have ordered an SU repair kit so maybe see which runs better.
There's a few Avenger Stromberg carbs on eBay Paddy.
If the filter is clean, could be your SU just needs the mixture adjusting?
As carbs wear out they run leaner, from air sucking into the manifold around the butterfly spindle.
Always remember my old Mk3 Cortina GT, did 28 mpg with a worn carby, got it overhauled and she dropped down to 25 mpg...lol
Avengers give a lot of trouble with oily fumes pissing into the air cleaner through the flame trap. I re-route the flame trap hose from the rocker cover to the air filter inlet neck - that way any oil will just drip out the neck and stay well away from the filter - see my article in the technical section.
Okay well the PayPal account has been charged up. So I'm in the market for a TC manifold and 2 strombergs. Do it right!
If you are going to do it right get 2 Dellorto DHLA40's. Much better, see my '75 or my '80 or JoKer's rally car for more about the Dellortos but Avengers love them.
Twin Dellortos might drown that little 1300...lol
Hey, there was a 1300TC model! I'd doubt though they left the factory with Dellortos though!
Yeah...I think all the TC's (Twin Carbs) were CD Strombergs, while the Tiger was the only model to use Webers?
Avengers never left the factory with Dellortos despite what Wikipedia says...lol
Wikipedia is lies!!
Well an uncle-in-law of mine is a MK2 Escort rally ace, he is near 50 years old and still drives like a mad 18 year old. He repairs crashed rally cars, mostly forestry competitions and I had a long talk about Avengers/Sunbeams with him. I remember him driving - like a bat out of hell - several Sunbeams about 20 years ago. He said he used to get 110mph out of a 1300cc Sunbeam (the chopped Avenger) and had great fun leaving 2.0 Opel Mantas for dust, he just didn't take his foot off the pedal, nerve, extreme nerve!
So he said the Avenger/Sunbeam had a few problems, as a rally car. The front hub stubs could often wring off, the gearbox could bust and the back end could warp. I guess the Escort had a stronger floor pan. But sure any rally car needs a lot of upgrading. The Avenger however had one big advantage over the Escort as the engine could rev a lot higher (so you could rev a Sunbeam through the roof) and as a cheap entry into the rallying world they used to mate a Ford gearbox to the Rootes engine with Dellorto carbs and you kept a few front struts on stand-by.
Anyhow as for as wether the SU or Stromberg is better he reckoned the Stromberg would make them run sweeter as (just as I thought) the 1.75'' is a universal carbie which means that any wear in them at all and you have a big problem. The one on mine as I say is the post April '75 build so it got the SU. Wether this change was made because Chrysler UK got a dig-out from the government so they were obliged to increase local content, or it was just Chrysler being hungry is a debatable point.
My Avenger wouldn't start last friday night and I found that the carb was the problem, the metering tube had jammed down. So I took the SU out of it the next day and seen that the pot seemed pretty loose and the mixture adjuster was at the minimum but the car is running rich, carb soaking etc and even fuel vapor coming back out of a removed spark-plug! I was thinking of changing the carb, hence this thread, so the failure to start finally pushed me to get it done.
Talking about the Sunbeam, legend has it that over a weekend a few guys in Chrysler UK chopped an Avenger to make a more compact Avenger with a hatchback to compete with the Ford Fiesta and to have the Linwood factory something usefull to do as the Hillman Imp was long overdue the axe, the Imp was the main reason Rootes went bust in the first place, the warranty costs pushed Rootes over the brink and into the hands of Chrysler.
The reason I'm going on about the Sunbeam in relation to the carbs is that I asked him did he ever see a SU on a Sunbeam - No. Then I see that when they came out with the MK2 (Chrysler) Avenger they went back to using the Stromberg.
So the case for the prosecution is closed. The SU was a mistake! Probabbly okay on the 1725cc Hunter but when you fit a 1.7-2.2 litre ranged carbie to a 1300cc and just use a thicker needle to compensate then guess what, a bit of wear and you get a fuel guzzler.
Same mistake Ford made with their V.V carburettor, I remember them! Green diaphram, black diaphragm what the heck ever! After they got a little wear the car drank like an alcoholic.
So next Saturday, presuming the Stromberg arrives my Avenger gets the more standard Hillman fitment. The CD3 I've ordered is needled for a 1500cc and I din't think thats really a problem, sure if I take a rush of blood to my head and I fit the Tiger head I got then a single 1500cc optimized carbie on a 1300cc big inlet valved head I guess will run okay. The reason its needled as a 1500cc is because it was the only 1.5'' Stromberg CD3 I could find with the correct rod linkage as it looks like most of the Strombergs you see on ebay are made for the cable operated throttle as used on the MK2. You cannot interchange the linkage on the SU to the Stromberg unfortunatly and I like the way the rod throttle linkage feels on the foot.
Next on the agenda is fitting the 3.89:1 diff on the car as it (according to the part code) currently has the 4.11:1 although the way the enging is revving so high at 60mph I wouldn't be suprized if it actually has the 4.37:1 in it. My rally driving relative also told me that he had given away so many Avenger/Sunbeam parts, including Rootes to Ford bellhousings!!! Dammit!!!!
Great to hear those stories from the old days Paddy!!
As the Avengers were made from thin steel they had to flex somewhere!! A big problem was the floor of course.
One of my seat mounts broke free under the car and my mechanic had trouble mig welding it back on...kept blowing holes in the floor...you can see how they rust out so easily!!
I agree about the SU and Strombergs...strombergs anyday...people moan about rough running and idling, but my 1600 runs and idles sweetly with its stromberg...cause it doesn't have a worn spindle...haha
As it's fitted with an Alpine motor I want to upgrade the 1.5" carby to 1.75", but could only find 1.75" SU's...yuk!!
Managed to track down a 1.75" stromberg finally...from a Rover 3500 and am getting it fitted to my spare 1.5" inlet manifold. They'll make a 4 stud 1.75" mounting block and weld it to the 1.5" inlet manifold.
Would have liked to have gotten an 1.75" inlet manifold like the English GLS used, but they're extremely rare in NZ.
I've never seen an Avenger with a 1.75" inlet manifold...even my 1979 1600 GLS has a 1.5" one.
So all going well I'll soon have a better breathing Avenger...the needle should be fine...1/2 a Rover (1750) isn't much different to 1600, like the 1500 carby on your 1300.
About your 1300 gearing...they all had 4.11 diffs and rev like crazy...
3650 rpm @ 60 mph with standard 155/80 tyres, dropping down to 3450 with a 3.89 diff.
Using 165/80 tyres will knock another 100 rpm off and if you're really keen, you can fit 175/80 tyres on 5J rims to knock a further 100 rpm off!! That's what I've got fitted to my 1600, purrs along nicely on the motorway...can even have a conversation...lol
Quote from: oldschool on November 08, 2011, 11:47:36 PM
Would have liked to have gotten an 1.75" inlet manifold like the English GLS used, but they're extremely rare in NZ.
I've never seen an Avenger with a 1.75" inlet manifold...even my 1979 1600 GLS has a 1.5" one.
sure i've got one on mine.
*goes outside*
yep. originally off a 77 alpine with an autobox. its really good. simpler than mucking about with a tc set up.
Yeah, I only know of one other NZ Avenger with a factory 1.75" carby and that's a 1977 Alpine Auto too...maybe the only model to get it?
While the TC has more power, tuning was always a problem. Using one carb saved money too, even more so when the face lifted Chrysler Avenger went back to the 1.5" carb.
my other 77 was originally an alpine auto too, but already had a manual box and different engine. 73 and 76 were only gls'. not sure about original trans - what models had the option of the bw?. i don't think any of those cars had more than a 1.5'' on them.
tc alpines, i recall, were made between 74 and 76? it would make sense then that the top spec cars would have bigger carbs between then and the rebranding. and autos, although mine wasn't too bad [apart from being fucked], did need the extra power.
Maybe only the 1976-77 Hillman Avenger Alpine Auto (GLS in UK) had the bigger 1.75" carb? One sold on eBay here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140623313164?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
My 1976 Hillman Avenger 1600 Super Auto had a 1.5" and it looks like all the Chryslers whether manual or auto did as well.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=413385645
The original Avenger 1500 auto used a 3 speed BW35 - I've never seen one, anybody else?
With the update to 1600 in late 1973 (UK) the 4 speed BW45 was used. NZ updates ran about 6 months behind the UK, so we had 1974 1500 and 1600 Avengers and 1977 Hillman and Chrysler Avengers being sold together!
My Charger has a BW35.
Yes a great auto used in many old Fords, Chryslers/Hillmans, Jags, Rovers, Triumphs and even the Morris Marina....cringe!!
I've just never seen an auto (BW35) 1500 Avenger. Maybe they didn't sell the auto here until the 1974 update when the BW45 was fitted?
Autos and 1.75 carbs....
All 1500 NZ built Avengers were manuals, the first 4 speed auto made here was the Alpine GLS first built January 75. After that (not exactly sure when) autos were also put in a small number of 1600 Supers. Not sure about imports if any were autos.
Carbs...Twin CD150 were fitted to "TC" engine that also had double valve spring, duplex timing chain and very good cam. Started here in 1500TC then 1500 Alpine 1600 Alpine and Alpine GLS. The last Alpines built in 77 had the same engine but were then fitted with 1x175 carb. only a very small number were made. (I have one)
With the Chrysler Avengers started in late 77 the model range changed and the GLS now had the "Super" engine with single valve spring and single row cam chain
As far as I can tell the SU was fitted after 04/75 build. According to the '74 Avengers photographed in Brighton' brochure I got the 4speed auto was an option from the October '73 onwards model because the brochure stated:
''..for '74 Chrysler has secured the Borg Warner four speed as an option..'' so I don't think any of the 1500cc Avengers had the four speed.
Likewise as for the Sutpidly Usless BL type carb that was not seen on the '74 model photos and according to a '76 Chrysler brochure (the last year of the Hillmans) it briefly mentions the 1.75'' carburettor so I'm guessing the SU was used only from 04/75-end/76. This model is also the one with the overiders on the bumpers on the Super and GL models - at least those badly made in the UK! Bless Todd Motors for the use of decent underseal!!!
From what you guys say it sounds like the NZ Avengers didn't use the SU (perhaps only on the Auto) and looking at the ebay advert for the Hillman '76 Auto thats a late model post Oct '73 'round badge' model.
So the round badgers (the badge on the grille went from rectangular to circular with the 1250/1300 - 1500/1600 Oct '73 upgrades)
Oct'73-apr'75 round badgers with Stromberg, apr'75-end'76 SU round badgers.
The inlet manifold on mine looks like its made for the 1.75, I'll take a snapshot of it with the carbie removed, I'm again guessing therefore the manifiold is therefore ideal for the Tiger head - with a single carbie. Hmmm I'm still in a half mind about fitting that big valve head. The engine is the original unit and I don't want to wreck the bottom end on it, then add drum brakes into the equation!!!!
Anyhow I hope the Stromberg arrives by Saturday morning, I'm in Dublin during the week and only back at the home place on the weekends. I don't want to take d'Avenger on the M1 again untill its geared up, come to think of it that bastard worn out SU probabbly, with the silted up coolant, caused that car to overheat on the M40 in England when I was taking her over.
F****** British Leyland dammed parts!
Looks like Logan's 1600 auto is one of the oldest in NZ then, registered in Feb 1975 and still going strong!!
Seems the SU carb was only fitted in the 1300cc NZ Avengers...thankfully!!
Todds were all over the place here with Avenger motors....my 1974 1600 Super has a factory fitted double row timing chain and double valve spring Alpine motor with a single Alpine carb, while my 1975 Alpine 1600 TC has a single row timing chain with double valve springs and my 1979 1600 GLS has a double row timing chain with single valves springs...go figure??
Maybe they just had a lucky dip bin in the engine room.
For sure Richard...now I know why Scarlett's so economical...the single Alpine carb is jetted for 800cc...haha
lol at SU hate.
SU's are awesome
I do agree SU's are awesome! Thats why Triumphs have them. Got to say though my twin strombergs have given me no trouble at all since I put the carb kits in them.
I notice CD strombergs respond quicker, as they haven't got that heavy piston to lift like SU's have.
Poor old Jag had to take the SU's off their later E-Types and replace them with CD Strombergs to sell them in the USA, as the SU's couldn't meet emissions standards.
Right so, the Stromberg CD3 is fitted. I had to use insulating tape to seal up the vacum advence at the SU has a bigger pipe on it, seems okay. The carbie I got had TC stamped on the inlet side flange and according to the Haynes the 1500 TC had a similar needle to the 1250, the carb I got was the only one I could find with the rod linkage so I was stuck for needle choice. The Stromberg CD3 I got with the linkage to suit the Hillman Avenger is apparently needled for a 1500cc.
Anyhow, as you guys say the throttle response is a bit more sharp but idle is a bit lumpy and I think its running a bit lean, the first impression was that when I lift the piston even slightly (at idle) the engine stalls, so to adjust the richness, ahh ffs! CD3, not CDS needs a tool to adjust through the oil damper. It will not start at cold without a bit of choke, so I'm thinking thats a good thing, and after started and if I knock the choke off it'll flat spot when I hit the pedal. Changed the air filter and gave it new plugs. I'll put a few miles on it to see what they (the plugs look like.)
I notice the car is not as quick as it was and when accelerating (when warm) a bit of choke seems to make the pull of the car more solid, running lean therefore, the exhaust too is not as hot at the tail-end. Mind you the fuel the worn out SU was giving it, that if the exhaust was a mile long it'd be hot! 5w40 diesel lube I've used in the damper.
Hey-ho after more ebay action (ordered a Stromberg adjusting tool) I'll get there. Turn the screw to richen, idle, lift the piston if it still stalls too soon then turn it some more. Then look at he plugs. I should compression test the clynders as there is a tick in the engine at fast idle that does not sound like a tappit, bearing in mind the engine while I have had the car was overheated (thank you smiths instrument cluster putting the temp gauge where you can't see it) that could be a broken ring. Oh well, onwards.
OKAY! Stromberg go-go!
Got the new Stromberg carbie set up by an uncle-in-law of mine (diffrent guy from who I was on about before in this thread.) He had worked on and wrecked many Avengers back in the day.
I have never seen d'Avenger run so well, I am one happy customer! The idle is smooth, starts right on the button, no flat spots, no odd smelling exhaust fumes and sounding a good note, no shaking from the engine at fast idle and the car is pulling away at 20mph in top gear smoothly with no delay. Time will tell what the fuel consumption is doing and the car is pulling very nicely at light throttle so it should be good.
I've no doubt a SU in good repair would run pretty well just without the better throttle response on the Stromberg.
All is well that ends well.